Great....this keeps getting better and better.

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Phenominal.

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Wait, where are all the nay-sayers? C'mon Cleveland CAVE (Citizens Against Virtually Everything) chapter, tell us what a disaster this is going to be!!

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Way to go Cleveland! Congratulations on what is just the begining of one of the best parts of Cleveland history. Everyone in Cleveland needs to start being extremeley proud of their city and take part in the changes.

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-"Oh, there's gonna be homeless people down there!"
-"Oh,. 'they' should have kept the flats the way it used to be!"
-"Oh, no company in their right mind would move to Cleveland!"
-"Oh, it's the wrong type of development for this city!"

There, now we all know how silly some of these people sound. This is a great project for the city!! Well done, and I can't wait to experience the finished product!!

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There are 26000 plus hotels in the world I managed one of the top 50 in the world in NYC....WOO HOO this is a huge plus for Cleveland....

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I like it!

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Great news...its starting to really shape up...Im anxous to see what type of grocery store will be down there, and also does anyone know if there will be a separate marina for flats constituents?

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I am talking about purchasing one of the units. It 's about time we had some true luxury downtown. I've looked for a long time for a residence to fit my needs.

Here is what I've learned from inside sources:

1. A few blocks in the flats will be gated. Use will be for residents and guests only. This will solve the crime problems. I wish the gated area would stretch further, but it's a start.

2. Trader Joe's closing at Crocker Park and moving to the flats

3. There will be an exclusive marina

4. All residents will get Browns season tickets

5. Five or six new high-end bars going in

6. Microsoft to take some offices in the flats

7. New private park along the river for residents only

All in all, cook stuff! Comeback city.

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It is Bush's fault, LOL!

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rushisking, "inside sources" or not, I cannot fathom Wolstein making any part of this development gated. That will not be getting anybody excited about this developmet. They've been touting a public park/boardwalk as part of this development since the get go. You simply cannot sell this idea to the general public if your intention is to seclude the middle class, which this city is built on, from nearing any portion of this project.

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My buddies in real estate tell me it's the high-end market that's hot, hot.
Entry level homes under 250K are a tough sell. but those 1 million plus are on fire.

Like it or not, gated communities and exclusivity are just about the only ways to lure empty nesters and pro players downtown. And we all aspire to gated communities. Once people see this playground downtown they'll want to get at least close to the prestige. so lower-end developments will spring up around.

I personally love the gated community plans.
Smart business.

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tonydungy , I wouldn't take offense to gated communities. Many suburbs around the country do this within their own middle class communities. If people feel safer that way, who cares? The public doesn't need to wander into a private residential area anyway.

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Rushisking - any part of that post that you didn't make up?

Having a relative involved in the planning of this project myself I can say with certainty that there are NO plans to make any part of the waterfront portions of the current parcel 'private access' only. The drive for the majority of the parcel is to have ground level retail which also means that none of that can be 'gated access' either.

Your dream of a walled off community is wrong on a number of levels, but posted here like they are facts is beyond dreaming... its flat out lying.

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Gated BLOCKS along the riverfront? Surely you jest.

1) The vast majority of us who live in the city are committed to an urban lifestyle, which means being around lots of people from lots of background ... not creating a rich people holding pen on some of the most desirable public space in the city. This isn't Hunting Valley, folks ... it's the city.

2. I think several gated blocks in the flats would increase the likelihood of crime ... one of the best ways to prevent crimes from occurring is by having eyes on the street; a plan like you're suggesting would limit the number of people who could discourage crime through their presence.

3. Gated communities are increasingly out-of-touch relics akin to country clubs. People born after 1970 are far less likely that the generations above them to have any interest in that kind of exclusivity and isolationism. We should be building the Flats with this new blood in mind.

And I'm sure Wolstein is doing so, instead of playing to surburbanites' unfounded, reactionary fears. Kudos to him.

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FYI Rushisking--- you may want to refer to the numerous reports about the flats seeking LEED status:

"LEED for Neighborhood Development requirements

The Flats East Bank development is seeking certification under the U.S. Green Building Council's LEED pilot program for Neighborhood Development (LEED-ND), which emphasizes green infrastructure and sustainability. The project must meet the following criteria pertaining to landscape design and public space:

Sidewalks and Streets

Streets and sidewalks must be open for general public use and not gated.
Continuous sidewalks will be provided along both sides of all streets within the project.
Streets will have bike lanes connecting the neighborhood to diverse uses within and outside the neighborhood. "

Looks like EVERYTHING in this certification is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you are claiming.

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First of all, this plan is a good idea on paper, any revitalization of a diminishing city is good. From an investment point, I certainly would not like to be the equity players in this deal. You can look at this from 2 angles. First, the future consumer. Everyone knows downtown has no lifestyle centers (residential, retail, lodging, etc in one project). So this will be a place to attract both young professionals and empty nesters. This will work but only if the market can support it..which leads to the second angle...investment (both consumer and institutional). Its no secret Cleveland's economy and real estate is top 3 worst in the country for mid to large cities. Cleveland city limits actually has a negative growth rate. All this due diligence support about future tenants that Wolstein and Fairmount proclaim is a little confusing. So they're saying that 2.5 years from now upon delivery of the project, that Cleveland's economy is going to turn around so much that residential vacancies will be sub 5% in the Flats and everyone will want to buy/rent there. O.K. maybe, considering the area will be new and attractive. But where are these people living now, remembering that both the residential rental and for sale real esate markets are considerably low in this area. Office space is a great idea, but don't forget the seriously high vacancy rates in office space in the downtown area...that happened for a reason. They are basically using the first movers 'build it and they will come' strategy, which is risky and if you look at real estate investment firms over the past 3 years you will see all the failed projects in even world class cities, let alone abandoned cities. Three years from now Cleveland will still have a severe poverty issue, below average income issue, limited job growth, high crime and terrible city leadership. There is no doubt this project will look good, but without efforts to fix the rest of the town, this will be a 'gated' middle to upper class community without it actually being physically enclosed. Consumers will go there, walk around the 3 square blocks, and dare not to walk anywhere else but their cars or homes. Basically the city needs more in the pipeline and I promise if it took Wolfstein and company this long, it doesn't look too promising. Developers have tried believe me, and they have failed.

Just a side note, this project is the beginning of what Pittsburgh did ten years ago and its now rated one of the most desirable young and vibrant cities to live....and by the way it all started from their political reform in leadership...something Cleveland lacks severely. I mention Pittsburgh not because Clevelanders hate Pitt, but because these cities were highly comparable 15 - 20 years ago when Pittsburgh was facing similar economic/demographic issues with the closing of steel mills and manufacturing.

The project is a good start but Cleveland needs more. Did city council forget it has a developable lake front?

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This sounds real good. I think Trader Joe's would be a good fit down there and fit in with the Green ideology of the project that it's getting with this hotel. This project, I'm thinking, will create enough hype around it to help with Stark's project also. The more people that live and go downtown the more development. So everyone invest in Cleveland and go downtown, check out China Town, there's so many hidden gems down there. Take your family to the West Side Market. Buy a piece of art from Tremont. When ever possible spend your money in the city. On a different note, we need more of those restaurant weeks so the younger professionals can afford the restaurants on West 6th.

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In rushisking's (terrible screen name, by the way) defense, it sounds like perhaps some overzealous salesperson told him exactly what he wanted to hear so that he/she could sell a million dollar condo. I don't doubt that they told him this, I just doubt that it's true.

I agree with PGLawful's insightful post, particularly his comparison of this development with Pittsburgh's. Any chance of economic revival in this town is going to seriously constrained by a corrupt, greedy and self-serving local government.

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ought to be rushisaviagrapoppinbloatedfreakofnature

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I'm tired of Clevelanders using Pittsburgh as model. My wife is from Pittsburgh and I spend a lot a time in the city. They have the same economic issues Cleveland has. Pittsburgh still has not fully recovered from the 80's. Pittsburgh still faces a declining metro population and job growth issues. Yes, they have done some good things in the city, but we need to start taking pride in what is going on in our city. Think about it, downtown now has a proposed medical mart, design district, convention center, Euclid Corridor project, and the Flats redevelopment. Development like this creates the critical mass downtown needs to attract more residents and business, it is the usual "chicken or the egg" analogy. The more viable downtown becomes, the more attractive the area becomes for outside businesses. Therefore, Cleveland needs to proactive, rather than waiting. This project is exactly what is needed. I also believe making downtown stronger we eventually lead to a better overall city. As for poverty, this is a national issue that every region faces. There is enormous downward pressure on the middle and lower classes. The question is how do we as a city replace thousands of decent paying manufacturing jobs? I'm not sure if there is an answer to this complicated question (American middle class wages are falling across the board). Finally, if we expect city council to get things done in the city, we might as well throw in the towel. Cities are revitalized through private investment, and we are seeing this. City council and the mayor are important, but to be honest, the less governmental involvement the better. When national companies start picking our region, we can assume something is going right. Companies invest in areas that are profitable.

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While our city faces a fair share of challenges, I don't think Cleveland's downtown, or the trends in the city as a whole, is quite what you suggest. I think Pittsburgh is a tremendous city, but I actually don't think :

1. Cleveland's population is shrinking, but so are many cities across the Midwest and the Northeast. The most recent Census estimate actually suggests that both Pittsburgh and Cleveland are among the fastest shrinking cities (percentage-wise) in the country. But much of this can be explained by the mass exodus of jobs (particularly manufacturing) that both cities have experienced, largely beyond their control.

2. Despite this overall population decline, Cleveland is seeing repopulation in several areas by high-income, high-education individuals, people who didn't live in the city ten years ago. Compare neighborhoods like Detroit Shoreway, Ohio City, Tremont, Asiatown and University Circle in 2000 to what they're shaping up to be today.

3. In 2006, Cleveland and Pittsburgh tied in The Economist's report on "livable cities" as the two most livable cities in America.

4. Cleveland's downtown has been growing considerably over the last two decades, from 7,261 in 1990 to 9,599 (and look for it to be over 15,000 in the 2010 census). The Brookings Institution has recognized our downtown as one of the fastest growing nationwide ... over 10 years, our downtown population has grown 32.2%.

5. From 1990 to 2000, Pittsburgh's downtown population shrunk from 3,785 to 2,721. Now that data is 8 years old now, and I know they have been doing some fantastic things with their downtown, including a very exciting riverfront project they're launching in their Cultural District, but that will take at least as long as Wolstein's project to complete. Not to knock Pittsburgh; I just don't think Cleveland's doing as bad a job with its downtown as you think.

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I'll admit I am a little skeptical that our economy here can support something like this, but I'm optimistic that this will breathe new life into the city. I give the Wolsteins a lot of credit for their efforts. Most developers have shied away from this sort of development in Cleveland, but they are taking a chance. We need more developers to do the same.

i'm also very interested in the green angle and learning more about it.

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People can't underestimate the amount of Clevelanders & Ohioans that have moved away, just waiting for positive signs back at home before moving back. I'm one of them, just moved my family of 6 BACK to the Cleveland area from the West because I'm seeing the potential turn into reality in pockets all over the metro area.

Also, don't discount the professionals in other cities in the Northeast & Chicago that would move here at 1/2 or 1/3 the living expense with equal amenities.

If the Flats project was the only one going on downtown, I'd be skeptical, but it's not.. The Euclid Corridor, West 4th development, University Circle build-out, Med Mart are happening simultaneously.

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the eternal "revitilization" of cleveland......as if a luxury hotel is going to finish the job. i wouldn't put much hope in a project that supports the service economy in a city that most people don't want to visit.

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This eco-friendly label sounds nice, but projects like this should be across the board. Costs are lowered when done in bulk. And our federal government cut back and rescinded tax breaks on hybrid car purchases. What I'm saying is that unless everyone takes the initiative of "green", the few that do are more expensive. What Cleveland needs is more business all over. From mom and pop to big box to tech etc. A waterfront attraction, gambling if done properly (UNLIKE previous proposal), rebuilding of neighborhoods (where possible), etc., all become little parts of the whole. The whole being a rebirth of Cleveland.

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This is great to see, as much as I am in opposition to moving folks from one section of downtown to another. When the project is completed, it will give the major networks something else to shoot at national sporting events besides the Rock Hall. Contrary to terje's comments, Cleveland is an area that folks want to visit. Its primarily the home grown folks that have the most negative outlook on our town.

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There is some information about the green aspects of the project available at http://www.buildingcleveland.org/model.php.

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Hopefully, this project will become reality for Cleveland.

The Marina is a great idea and might attract some nautical types to downtown.

On a calm summer night, from a few miles out on Lake Erie, the Cleveland skyline is beautiful.

Also, unlike Chicago, downtown living in Cleveland is affordable. This project could work in my opinion.

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We are on roll, baby. All of these projects will combine for a great minor comeback. And we have water for all eternity.

There is no doubt in my mind that the flats project will work because of the pent-up demand for high-end properties. While we have not had much if any income growth, anyone who's been a shrewd investor has seen her/his disposable shoot up and up for years.,the past few months notwithstanding. We do need to make sure that the area does not devolve into underage drinking center it was not too long ago.

There are a couple of reasons we will never come all the way back.

1. Tech jobs and start ups will never provide mass employment that manufacturing has. Those moving into town will be highly educated with six figure incomes. This will help the tax base and the high-end properties, but will not help the working class. New companies will hire a couple of admin assistants and perhaps help support a few neighborhood service jobs. But no room for HS diplomas as in manufacturing.

2. Weather. Many of my friends are flocking to Texas, with warmer weather and low housing prices. Most of my friends from out of state will never live here because of the winters. A few moved here last fall and fled in April. Nobody wants to retire here. Cost of living is just a low or lower in TX, AR, MS, LA, AL with much better climate. When Cleveland was in its prime widespread AC was not in the picture down south.

But all in all we do what we can. Some of these projects may not work (the luxury Northside Lofts in Akron are nearly empty and are to die for--check them out). Most will, including the flats. As long as we don't expect miracles, we'll be pleased as punch with the city soon.

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According to Rush, Boston & Chicago (not to mention Montreal, Toronto, Paris, Vienna, Berlin, Moscow, Tokyo) should fold up shop and move to Northern Mexico (aka Texas), because the weather in those two cities are as bad, if not worse than Cleveland.

Having a Heat Index over 100 for 4-5 months straight is better weather?? I lived in Texas for 2 years, was the worse place I've ever lived, and I've lived in many places..

Alabama, Mississippi, are you serious?? Huge infrastructure problems in the South; education, natural resources, etc...

Cleveland's comeback (if it does happen) is going to be heavily dependent on the Medical field (bio-med, device manufacturing), not necessarily "tech"..

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